I'm now in the game

[notbob]

Jes bought a copy of the Ball Blue Book and got me some beets to put up.

Do I need a pressure cooker fer "pickled beets" or will white vinegar
(5% acidity)? I'm jes under 8,000 feet elevation.

I plan to "julienne" them and then pickle 'em. ;)

nb

[songbird]

Post by notbob
Jes bought a copy of the Ball Blue Book and got me some beets to put up.
Do I need a pressure cooker fer "pickled beets" or will white vinegar
(5% acidity)? I'm jes under 8,000 feet elevation.
I plan to "julienne" them and then pickle 'em. ;)

i cube them about 1-2cm, smaller will bleed all
the color out. which is ok if you keep the juice
you cook them in.

no pressure cooking needed for sufficiently acidic
foods as long as you observe proper food prep and
don't mess up the seals.

will keep 2-3yrs, but usually are best used within
a few years.

i like things pretty vinegary and with enough sugar
to get a proper sweet and sour taste. i also like a
lot of onions.

i clean/prep the beets first, then to cook them up
i dice them to the right size and steam them with the
onions on top. once done i add enough sugar and
vinegar to taste. i don't steam them with a huge
amount of water so i don't have to waste any juice.

always turns out well. enjoy. :)


songbird

[notbob]

Post by songbird
i cube them about 1-2cm, smaller will bleed all
the color out. which is ok if you keep the juice
you cook them in.

What else would I do with the "juice"?

Post by songbird
no pressure cooking needed for sufficiently acidic
foods as long as you observe proper food prep and
don't mess up the seals.

The more I learn, the more I realize I know zip!

I usta operate a huge steam "retort" that did no. 10 cans. Turns out I
knew almost nothing about my operation. Jes "keep it this hot for this
long".

Apparently, my 5 qt Kuhn-Rikon is not big enough, even for 1 pt jars
"hot water bath" (need at least 1 inch of water above lids). Half pint
jars, yes.

Looks like I'll hafta wait until my next SSN check to buy a big enough
canner (and some "canning salt", mag lid lifter, Ove Glove, etc).

How do I know if the process is OK if the added vinegar is only "5%"
acidic. Ball Blue Book sez the food must be below "4.6%" acidic. to
qualify fer "high acid" food ....and thus requiring only a "hot water
bath". Do I need some "ph test strips"? ;)

nb

[songbird]

notbob wrote:
...

Post by notbob
How do I know if the process is OK if the added vinegar is only "5%"
acidic. Ball Blue Book sez the food must be below "4.6%" acidic. to
qualify fer "high acid" food ....and thus requiring only a "hot water
bath". Do I need some "ph test strips"? ;)

i've never bothered, i usually make the
mix somewhat stronger than 2 cups of water to
1 cup of vinegar. figure that the beets will
soak some of it up. i actually do it by taste.

noway have i ever used full strength vinegar
alone.

as for BWB, we've been oven canning (Mom has
done it this way her whole life - she won't
change). i'm careful and have only a few lids
come off (budget ones - never had any problem with
the Ball lids).


songbird

[notbob]

Post by songbird
(budget ones - never had any problem with
the Ball lids).

Thnx fer the timely info, sb.

I've read the "new" Ball lids are not as good as the "older" Ball lids,
so users are recommending using other off-brand lids. Care to
elaborate? ;)

nb

[songbird]

notbob wrote:
...

Post by notbob
I've read the "new" Ball lids are not as good as the "older" Ball lids,
so users are recommending using other off-brand lids. Care to
elaborate? ;)

the way we can (oven canning) is different than BWB.

in the past when i've used some off-brand lids they
can blow off from the pressure being too much and the
lid not leaking enough during the oven stage. they
were significantly more shiney than the Ball lids so
they sealed faster and better than what we really
wanted.

note, this isn't a common happening at all, perhaps
6 lids out of a thousand, but i promptly switched to
Ball lids that i had on-hand and haven't had any issues
since then. also another note, sometimes odd jar and
ring sizes have been issues as we get a lot of jars
given to us from people who do yard sales or they know
people cleaning out their basements so sometimes we'll
have a ring or lid not work for some of those at times.

with new jars and lids, rarely any issues unless the
jar has a flaw not noticed by either of us during
cleaning/prep/filling.

i do still use off-brand lids for some things (when i
make freezer jam or some other things i freeze after
they're hot packed and then cooled down but not much
heat or processing after they're filled).


songbird

[R***@home.now]

Post by songbird
...

Post by notbob
How do I know if the process is OK if the added vinegar is only "5%"
acidic. Ball Blue Book sez the food must be below "4.6%" acidic. to
qualify fer "high acid" food ....and thus requiring only a "hot water
bath". Do I need some "ph test strips"? ;)

i've never bothered, i usually make the
mix somewhat stronger than 2 cups of water to
1 cup of vinegar. figure that the beets will
soak some of it up. i actually do it by taste.
noway have i ever used full strength vinegar
alone.
as for BWB, we've been oven canning (Mom has
done it this way her whole life - she won't
change). i'm careful and have only a few lids
come off (budget ones - never had any problem with
the Ball lids).

From the National Center for Home Food Preservation web site, in the
section entitled "Frequently Asked Canning Questions":
<Quote>
Is it safe to process food in the oven?
No. This can be dangerous because the temperature will vary according
to the accuracy of oven regulators and circulation of heat. Dry heat
is very slow in penetrating into jars of food. Also, jars explode
easily in the oven.
<End Quote>
https://nchfp.uga.edu/questions/FAQ_canning.html#7

Also,
College of Agricultural Sciences
The Pennsylvania State University
in the section entitled:
"Canners and Canning Methods that are Not Recommended" says:
<Quote>
Solar canning, oven canning, open kettle canning, microwave
processing, and dishwashing processing are not safe canning methods.
<End Quote>
https://extension.psu.edu/canners-and-canning-methods-that-are-not-recommended

For food safety reasons, I'd prefer to rely on information found on
those two sites rather than "Mom has done it this way her whole life".

[songbird]

***@home.now wrote:
...

Post by R***@home.now
For food safety reasons, I'd prefer to rely on information found on
those two sites rather than "Mom has done it this way her whole life".

i've included caveats. and it's not just Mom, but
now also me. and that means probably 15,000 - 20,000
quarts of food with very few failures.


songbird

[notbob]

Post by songbird

Post by R***@home.now
For food safety reasons, I'd prefer to rely on information found on
those two sites rather than "Mom has done it this way her whole life".

i've included caveats. and it's not just Mom, but
now also me. and that means probably 15,000 - 20,000
quarts of food with very few failures.

I once put my Fluke temp meter on my old renters-grade electric oven.
It would swing as high ....and as low.... as 30 degrees (F) above/below
set temp.

I did the same to my daughter's renters-grade GAS oven. It would swing
only 5 degrees (F) above/below set point. I've yet to do the same to
my current gas oven, so I cannot say, with any certainty, that gas
stoves are better than electric stoves. ;)

nb

[heyjoe]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:43:55 -0600

Post by notbob

Post by songbird

Post by R***@home.now
For food safety reasons, I'd prefer to rely on information found on
those two sites rather than "Mom has done it this way her whole life".

i've included caveats. and it's not just Mom, but
now also me. and that means probably 15,000 - 20,000
quarts of food with very few failures.

I once put my Fluke temp meter on my old renters-grade electric oven.
It would swing as high ....and as low.... as 30 degrees (F) above/below
set temp.
I did the same to my daughter's renters-grade GAS oven. It would swing
only 5 degrees (F) above/below set point. I've yet to do the same to
my current gas oven, so I cannot say, with any certainty, that gas
stoves are better than electric stoves. ;)
nb

Temperature fluctuation s aside, the real problem, as I see it, is that
air doesn't transfer heat (or cold) as effective;y as water. That
increases the processing times, which assume water is the medium
transferring the heat for sterilization.

At close to 8,000 feet, known/good processing times and proceedures are
already long. Who wants to increase them?

[Wayne Boatwright]

On Fri 19 Oct 2018 10:42:50a, heyjoe told us...

Post by heyjoe
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:43:55 -0600

Post by notbob

Post by songbird

Post by R***@home.now
For food safety reasons, I'd prefer to rely on information
found on those two sites rather than "Mom has done it this way
her whole life".

i've included caveats. and it's not just Mom, but
now also me. and that means probably 15,000 - 20,000 quarts of
food with very few failures.

I once put my Fluke temp meter on my old renters-grade electric
oven. It would swing as high ....and as low.... as 30 degrees (F)
above/below set temp.
I did the same to my daughter's renters-grade GAS oven. It would
swing only 5 degrees (F) above/below set point. I've yet to do
the same to my current gas oven, so I cannot say, with any
certainty, that gas stoves are better than electric stoves. ;)
nb

Temperature fluctuation s aside, the real problem, as I see it, is
that air doesn't transfer heat (or cold) as effective;y as water.
That increases the processing times, which assume water is the
medium transferring the heat for sterilization.
At close to 8,000 feet, known/good processing times and
proceedures are already long. Who wants to increase them?

I would never ever consider using any type of stove oven for canning
purposes. Depending on the food (low acid or high acid) I process
using either a boiling water bath or canning grade pressure cooker.

I've never had a broken jar, but I have had a couple of jars over the
years that failed to seal properly in BWB. When that has happened
I've always stored those jars in the refrigerator immediately. I've
nver had food spoilage.

I normally follow USDA guidelines, although I sometimes to the Ball
Blue Book. I don't have to adjust for altitude differences as I live
at 1086 ft.

[notbob]

Post by Wayne Boatwright
I process
using either a boiling water bath or canning grade pressure cooker.

I plan on buying a 23 qt Presto pressure canner (gauged). No oven
canning for me.

Post by Wayne Boatwright
I've never had a broken jar, but I have had a couple of jars over the
years that failed to seal properly

I recently watched a U2B video that showed dozen of jars with no
"threaded bands" (as BBB calls 'em), on the jars. Only sealed lids.
What was that? ;)

nb

[Joy Beeson]

Post by notbob
I recently watched a U2B video that showed dozen of jars with no
"threaded bands" (as BBB calls 'em), on the jars. Only sealed lids.
What was that? ;)

Once the jars are thoroughly cold, you remove the bands (which we
called "rings" in the forties). This makes it easier to spot jars
that didn't seal -- sometimes a bit of food under the seal takes a few
days to manifest -- and it frees up the rings for another batch of
jars.

[songbird]

Post by Joy Beeson

Post by notbob
I recently watched a U2B video that showed dozen of jars with no
"threaded bands" (as BBB calls 'em), on the jars. Only sealed lids.
What was that? ;)

that may be people who don't wish to give away
their rings.

usually when we get new jars they come with rings and
i like to leave them on as some added protection for the
rims of the jars.

Post by Joy Beeson
Once the jars are thoroughly cold, you remove the bands (which we
called "rings" in the forties). This makes it easier to spot jars
that didn't seal -- sometimes a bit of food under the seal takes a few
days to manifest -- and it frees up the rings for another batch of
jars.

we always wipe with a cloth to avoid any problems with
the seals in this way. well worth the effort.


songbird

[notbob]

Post by Joy Beeson
Once the jars are thoroughly cold, you remove the bands (which we
called "rings" in the forties). This makes it easier to spot jars
that didn't seal -- sometimes a bit of food under the seal takes a few
days to manifes

As I suspected.

The BBB sez, "Remove the band. Gently try to remove the lid with your
fingertips. If the lid is concave and cannot be removed with your
fingertips, the jar is vacuum sealed". It goes on to explain how to
store "ringless" jars. I'm still learning.

My beets have already been tossed, so it's all about pressure cooking.
At 8K elev, I'm not entirely new to the idea. I jes couldn't get 1 inch
of water above my pint jars (half pint, yes!) in my current 5 qt
Kuhn-Rikon pressure cooker.

Thnx fer the info, Joy. ;)

nb

[heyjoe]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:28:23 -0600

Post by notbob
I jes couldn't get 1 inch
of water above my pint jars (half pint, yes!) in my current 5 qt
Kuhn-Rikon pressure cooker.

I've never covered the tops of the jars in a pressure canner (that's
only for boiling water bath).

For pressure canning you need a rack in the bottom to get the jars off
the bottom of the canner. Add enough hot water to come up about half
way on the jars. Seal it up, heat to boiling, vent the steam for 10+
minutes, put on the weight and start the timer.

Presto has owner's manuals online, available for download that contain
detailed, complete, official instructions.
<https://www.gopresto.com/manual-finder.php?category_id=3>

Combining the instructions from the Ball Blue Book and the Presto
owner's manual, you may figure out if you can pressure can pint jars in
your 5 qt Kuhn-Rikon. At the very least you'll need a rack in the
bottom of the Kuhn-Rikon. For pressure canning, adjusting for altitude
is done by adding weight (higher pressure), not increased processing
time, as in a boiling water bath.

[notbob]

Post by heyjoe
At the very least you'll need a rack in the
bottom of the Kuhn-Rikon.

My K-R did come with a rack for the bottom.

Post by heyjoe
For pressure canning, adjusting for altitude
is done by adding weight (higher pressure), not increased processing
time, as in a boiling water bath.

That I cannot do w/ my K-R. There is a safety valve that will begin
venting at 17 psi, after that, the "soft-seal" will blow off (lotta
safety features on the K-R). ;)

Thnx fer the info, hj.

nb

[Joy Beeson]

Post by notbob
I jes couldn't get 1 inch
of water above my pint jars (half pint, yes!) in my current 5 qt
Kuhn-Rikon pressure cooker.

In a pressure cooker, the water doesn't even have to *touch* the jars;
it's steam that does the job.

But in home equipment, enough water to be sure there will be steam to
the end will cover part of the jars.

[Drew Lawson]

Post by notbob
The BBB sez, "Remove the band. Gently try to remove the lid with your
fingertips. If the lid is concave and cannot be removed with your
fingertips, the jar is vacuum sealed". It goes on to explain how to
store "ringless" jars. I'm still learning.

In addition, leaving the rings on can trap water and lead to rust
on the lid. If things all line up, that can make the seal fail.
(I think I got that from USDA.) The only problem is figuring out
where to put all those rings. They're almost as bad as piling up
as wire hangers.

I'm not a food scientist, so I try to stick to the the official
recommendations, even though I know they are intentionally conservative.

I'll admit to still having some 3-year pasta sauce (tomato & meat,
pressure canned) that I'm still finishing off.

[notbob]

Post by Drew Lawson
In addition, leaving the rings on can trap water and lead to rust
on the lid. If things all line up, that can make the seal fail.
(I think I got that from USDA.) The only problem is figuring out
where to put all those rings. They're almost as bad as piling up
as wire hangers.

Thnx fer the info, Drew.

I never had a problem w/ "wire hangers". Cut up, they're useful for so
many things. Now plastic hangers are a whole 'nother animal. 8|

nb

[songbird]

Post by heyjoe
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:43:55 -0600

Post by notbob

Post by songbird

Post by R***@home.now
For food safety reasons, I'd prefer to rely on information found on
those two sites rather than "Mom has done it this way her whole life".

i've included caveats. and it's not just Mom, but
now also me. and that means probably 15,000 - 20,000
quarts of food with very few failures.

I once put my Fluke temp meter on my old renters-grade electric oven.
It would swing as high ....and as low.... as 30 degrees (F) above/below
set temp.
I did the same to my daughter's renters-grade GAS oven. It would swing
only 5 degrees (F) above/below set point. I've yet to do the same to
my current gas oven, so I cannot say, with any certainty, that gas
stoves are better than electric stoves. ;)
nb

Temperature fluctuation s aside, the real problem, as I see it, is that
air doesn't transfer heat (or cold) as effective;y as water. That
increases the processing times, which assume water is the medium
transferring the heat for sterilization.

you do understand that you are not sterilizing anything
using BWB. you are killing off some microbes, but there
are others that will survive such processing. which is
why i always specify that we do only high-acid items for
the most part (i don't do any low acid items ever, Mom
does some once in a while but i don't eat them).

if you are canning where sterilization is critical (low
acid items) then you must pressure can.

as for heat transfer, i always hot pack jars. so the
heat in the oven is mainly for sealing the jars/creating
a vacuum. almost everything seals up with 15-30 minutes
of oven time.

Post by heyjoe
At close to 8,000 feet, known/good processing times and proceedures are
already long. Who wants to increase them?

the longest process i run here is about 35 minutes
and that is when the oven is full (it holds 24 quarts
but i usually keep it down to 20).


songbird

[heyjoe]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 14:42:21 -0600

Post by notbob
Apparently, my 5 qt Kuhn-Rikon is not big enough, even for 1 pt jars
"hot water bath" (need at least 1 inch of water above lids). Half pint
jars, yes.

That's your pressure cooker? If yes, I'd guess you can pressure can
whatever size jar fits in it.

Post by notbob
Looks like I'll hafta wait until my next SSN check to buy a big enough
canner (and some "canning salt", mag lid lifter, Ove Glove, etc).

Jar lifter - you gotta have a jar lifter.
Consider a jar funnel - makes pouring into the jars easier and more
importantly, cleaner (less wiping to clean the jar edges).

Post by notbob
How do I know if the process is OK if the added vinegar is only "5%"
acidic. Ball Blue Book sez the food must be below "4.6%" acidic. to
qualify fer "high acid" food ....and thus requiring only a "hot water
bath".

It's the food pH that counts, not the solution pH. Old time varieties
of tomatoes are acidic and can be safely processed in a boiling water
bath. Some of the new tomato varieties are low acid and should be
processed in a pressure canner.

Not sure what the Ball Blue Book says about boiling water bath times at
altitudes over 1000 feet. "So Easy to Preserve" says to process pickled
beets in a boiling water bath for 30 minutes below 1000 feet. Above
6000 feet that processing time increases to 45 minutes and the amount of
water over the jars should be at least 2 inches and you may need to add
more boiling water if the water gets lower than 1 inch over the jar tops
during that 45 minutes.

Disclaimer - I don't do beets - ever.

[notbob]

Post by heyjoe
Not sure what the Ball Blue Book says about boiling water bath times at
altitudes over 1000 feet. "So Easy to Preserve" says to process pickled
beets in a boiling water bath for 30 minutes below 1000 feet. Above
6000 feet that processing time increases to 45 minutes and the amount of
water over the jars should be at least 2 inches and you may need to add
more boiling water if the water gets lower than 1 inch over the jar tops
during that 45 minutes.

Thnx fer the tips, Joe.

I've discovered the BBB sez 1 inch, the USDA sez 2 inches. When the two
agencies (Ball vs USDA) disagree, who should I believe? ;)

nb

[heyjoe]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 09:11:34 -0600

Post by notbob
I've discovered the BBB sez 1 inch, the USDA sez 2 inches. When the two
agencies (Ball vs USDA) disagree, who should I believe? ;)

You need at least 1 inch of water over the tops of the jars at all
times. And your pot/canner needs to be tall enough that the boiling
water doesn't splash out during processing. IMO, your pot can't be too
tall.

Because you need a much longer processing time due to your altitude, it
would be better to start out with 2 inches of water over the tops of
your jars. Evaporation losses during 45 minutes of boiling will be
significant. You may need to add boiling water during processing to
keep at least 1 inch over the tops of the jars.

Warning - if your water stops boiling during processing, you should
restart your timer from the beginning. Only add boiling water, if more
water is needed. Starting over is a major pain.

[Melba's Jammin']

Post by notbob
Jes bought a copy of the Ball Blue Book and got me some beets to put up.
Do I need a pressure cooker fer "pickled beets" or will white vinegar
(5% acidity)? I'm jes under 8,000 feet elevation.
I plan to "julienne" them and then pickle 'em. ;)
nb

Didja look at the recipe in the BBB? :-)
If they're pickled you can process for x minutes (consider your
altitude) in a boiling water bath. How were they? (Mine won the blue
ribbon again at the 2018 MN State Fair. Still have never tasted them. )

[songbird]

Post by Melba's Jammin'

Post by notbob
Jes bought a copy of the Ball Blue Book and got me some beets to put up.
Do I need a pressure cooker fer "pickled beets" or will white vinegar
(5% acidity)? I'm jes under 8,000 feet elevation.
I plan to "julienne" them and then pickle 'em. ;)

Didja look at the recipe in the BBB? :-)
If they're pickled you can process for x minutes (consider your
altitude) in a boiling water bath. How were they? (Mine won the blue
ribbon again at the 2018 MN State Fair. Still have never tasted them. )

lol...

we've stopped growing and pickling beets since
the main consumer of them no longer can eat them
(too much sugar). this is ok with me since it
then gives me more space for growing beans
(fresh, shellies and dry beans all are loved
here), tomatoes, squash, peppers, onions,
strawberries.


songbird (ready for spring